It’s going to be way more than the competition. If you want an affordable power bank I’d get one from one of the reputable chinese manufacturers.

Well, when someone puts that new “more power” battery into a less demanding tool and gets disappointed when a) the tool isn’t more powerful, and b) the battery peters out at the same time or earlier than the batteries they already had which were “less powerful”….that’s been a fairly common theme.

Accurate or erroneous or whatever words we may choose, it clearly isn’t reaching customers clearly enough. That seems to be just as true among big box store common joes as it does tradesmen (in my observations anyway).

“More power” is appropriate when a battery can deliver a higher sustained power levels than others.

“More power” is as clear as can be.

The *why* is complicated, and the same is often true across multiple industries. The results are what’s important to most users, and not so much the explanation (which I do try to provide in as thorough manner as possible).

Why does an Apple M2 processor perform better than an M1? How many users care as long as they see faster performance?

How many people understand the differences between Lithium, NiMH, and alkaline AA battery cells? The differences between USB-A and USB-C aside from physical plug size and shape?

As long as “more power” is accurate, which it is, what’s the problem?

RedLithium isn’t just marketing – it launched in 2010, with the upgraded batteries delivering more runtime, more power, and more charge cycles, and they could handle cooler operating temperatures.

https://toolguyd.com/milwaukee-redlithium-batteries-to-offer-greatly-improved-cordless-performance/

Stuart, yes, yes, all basic knowledge there. The marketing (for a long time now) confuses a lot of people. I’m saying that energy density has not changed (much) so “more power” is maybe a poor way of describing this, especially when it gets so muddied with lots of models and marketing bullet points. Milwaukee seems to have been pretty bad about this compared to other companies (lots of people think “red lithium” is some special juice…etc). I’ve noticed in the last several years that most reps don’t even know the basics of this basic battery tech/definitions/explanations (from four brands, not just Milwaukee). Questions like the one above just show that the marketing is not helping people understand – no matter the product line that ultimately leads to complaints and dissatisfaction. Perhaps “more power” needs to be backed off and described in two facets or something that people can digest more easily in marketing.

@JR Ramos

Electrical power is a function of voltage and current.

Li-ion cells have different measurable characteristics, one of which is continuous discharge current.

A battery cell’s continuous discharge current is tied to the maximum power it can deliver.

Put a grouping of cells into an enclosed battery pack, and the maximum power delivery will be different, but there will be still be a measurable level of current and power output a battery can sustain as its energy is drained by a tool.

Yes, the max discharge current is dependent on factors like internal resistance and heat build-up and dissipation. But that doesn’t mean power delivery isn’t well-characterized enough for Milwaukee to say that the Forge 6Ah matches the output performance of the HO 12Ah.

@Big Richard – where are you getting these values from? The math doesn’t add up with respect to data sheets for the cells used, and as far as I’m aware, Milwaukee never released such data.

The equipment needed to test for max discharge of these batteries is on the order of $10K the last I checked.

I missed it, too, thanks for pointing it out. The form factor on the Milwaukee looks nice…does the rotatable positioning on the Ridgid have a lot of advantage? I can see where it might.

As long as nobody squished the ends of your strut, these are great over a bandsaw. And always a square cut where the bandsaw is limited there .

Milwaukee posted a short clip (no pun intended): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz77TOMpY4o

I think it’s erroneous for Milwaukee (and everyone else I guess) to state that these batteries are delivering “more power”…what they are doing is suffering less under higher current loads, which means that they are better able to maintain the voltage output rather than sagging and thus shortening the “turbo time” of full voltage. If that makes sense.

When voltage drops, the power of your punch drops, and it’s all a function of how much you ask of the cells and how happy they can be under that load with all the added heat. So Cell Type A in one battery pack may have higher capacity and starts out at the same fully charged voltage, but when a tool asks it to sustain under a strong amp load, it can’t, gets hot, and trails off early (or perhaps shuts off from a thermo sensor command). Cell Type B in a “more powerful” battery pack can handle more heat and doesn’t peter out so quickly, so it seems more powerful even though it basically starts out with the same voltage and a bit less capacity. If you ask both batteries to run at a lower reasonable amp draw, then the “wimpy” Type A will perform great and probably actually have a longer run time. The Type B won’t be able to show its super powers under a low amp draw but it will show you it’s lower capacity by running out of juice sooner.

The lines are getting a little blurry now with some advances in cell chemistry, and then now with pouched and it looks like “tabless” cells. But just remember that these are all 3.7v nominal lithium ion and start out with the same punching power…it’s how long they can deliver a hard punch that is the difference in high output/higher power batteries. Some tools can benefit from this and some can’t. That said, all of the more robust cells seem to perform great at all levels and most suffer less from reduced capacity and life cycle over time, so they’re never a poor choice. There are tools that the XC 6.0 is a better choice (or even the 4.0) than the newer HO 5.0…often it’s a washout on the M12 system, though. Using the vacuum as an example, I do notice that the HO 5.0 lets the vacuum do its thing better and stronger before tapering off as the cells deplete, but overall run time is the same or less than the XC 6.0. If I run the vacuum only on the low setting, the 6.0 outlasts the high output 5.0 by several minutes and keeps that low punch until nearly the end.

It’s good to see some evolution in tool batteries finally. 21700 cells have been out for a long time but tool manufacturers were slow to adopt them – they are so much better on all levels than 18650. Now moving to the pouch cells is another great step since they usually perform better under a higher load and they are space-saving. Not sure about the tabless design but that’s sure shown its worth in other high power arenas (as the 21700 size was, the tabless design was developed and implemented by Tesla).

As to the Forge…sounds like Milwaukee is doing their marketing wank and maybe overstating some benefits…I guess tests will tell us later. Looks like the 6.0 will deliver the voltage maintenance (less sag) that the current HO 12.0 can do simply by virtue of less heat/more cells sharing the load. But it won’t run longer or have “more power”…should be a great improvement for some tools, though (thinking circular saw perhaps, miter saw for sure, OPE models, etc).

No indication about a new Surge yet.

Both seem to be selling well and I haven’t heard many complaints about either.

I was a big Makita fan years ago (or at least never found too much to disparage them) but they’re almost not even on my radar anymore despite having several great tools. I do enjoy a lot of their high quality bits and accessories, though – amazingly they still source several US-made accessories and most items are well machined and/or well designed.

I just realized the new rotary tool isn’t “fuel”…just brushless…but whatever. I’ll wait to see some reviews before deciding to get one of those – the previous one has been doing really well for me other than being a bit large.

Every so often I try to remember what those old long-battery Makita drills were like…how impressed we were at the POWER they had when driving screws. lol. And then those new red batteries that changed the world. 🙂 Pretty amazing how far cordless has come and even for $40 you can hold more power than $400 would get you just 25 years ago.

Thanks, and doohh!

Natural gas or propane fueled generators? Little particulate matter, quiet enclosures, and small footprints depending on KW requirements.

M18 Force Logic Single Channel Strut Shear & Shearing Dies

This seems like welcome competition for the Ridgid StrutSlayr systems.
Die cut Unistrut sure beats cutting with a portable band saw and then deburring the rough edges.

I’ll see if my ex-compatriots have seen this or are using the Ridgid

Were you able to see if they were doing a new generation of the Surge drivers? I love my m12 Surge but wish it had the bit holder and 3 led config of the newer M12 impact.

M12 has certainly taken the lead in its class – with lots of variety and mostly good performing tools. I once had hopes for Makita – but they offer little in 12V that I want. . I had bought their 12V rotary fabric cutter (PC01Z) for my wife and she likes its ergonomics. For her, she says it feels better in her hands than some of my M12 tools.

Well, it’s not nitro-carburization, but what it is exactly, beyond probable marketing blurb, is a mystery. I suspect it’s nothing special or new, as carbide tech has come so far in the industrial area (milling, etc) and that’s not really Milwaukee’s forte. I can’t say that their “nitrus” seems to cut any faster or cleaner or last any longer than the carbide blades I’ve used from Diablo, but they’re ok. The brazing lines have always looked clean and sound, which I cannot say for the Diablo blades that I’ve been through (although none outright failed there).

That caught my eye, too. The old one is no slouch – impressed me quite a bit using and abusing it many times. Its biggest drawback is the lack of a blower for dust (that’s a real drawback, too). Not sure what “fuel” will bring to this particular tool but it does seem to have some other feature updates. I don’t know about that longer handle, either…would prefer it to be more compact and perhaps give less leverage to the larger batteries in causing shoe tilt and such.

I suspect the fuel rotary tool will be a big improvement in power and hopefully the control board.

Sometimes I think they swing and miss on M12 but it’s impressive how many really good quality and high performing 12V tools they have now, and that they continue to give it attention.

Just want to second the vote for an EGO. I have the 615 cfm unit and it’s enough power for me. I imagine the next step up would be adequate for fred.

I got mine after the positive EGO blower review from Project Farm, which is about the best recommendation I could imagine.

The 10 cell 6.0/8.0 HO can produce more power than the old 15 cell 9.0 (around 1200 Watts vs. 1000 Watts). While the 12.0 can produce even more, at around 1800 Watts.

The High Output “more power” claim refers to batteries of the same size, I.e CP, XC, and HD. It does NOT mean that all HO packs produce the same amount of power. It is just saying that an XC HO pack will produce more power than a regular XC pack.

So the new FORGE 6.0 can match the 12.0’s 1800 Watt output, albeit for only about 3.6 minutes based on its 108Wh fuel tank.

$4500 which is way more than the competition. Milwaukee calls it 7200w/3600w but I think it should be 3600w/7200w